plus the 2016 elections. martin of the center for american progress joins us. and then how students score against international peers in math and science. our guest is from the national association for education statistics. we will also take calls and tweets. each morning at 7:00 eastern >> it was the first election in which women could vote. flarns harding played a big ole. then, u.s.-brazil relations. then a pentagon briefing with defense secretary chuck hagel.

[captioning performed by national captioning institute] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2013] >> florence harding once said she had only one real hobby. warren harding. she was a significant force in er husband's presidency. despite many struggles including her own poor health, flarns harding set many precedents that would help define the role of the modern first lady. good evening. tonight we are going to tell you the story of florence harding, who has been neglected and derided throughout history. in her time, the hardings came in as very popular people. we are going to learn about her and her husband's time in office and her interesting story not many people know. let me introduce you to our guests. katherine sibley is a history professor at st. joseph college.

her book is called "first lady florence harding: behind the tragedy and controversy." thank you for being here. david pietrusza is a guest as well. he's author of many books including "1920: the year of the six presidents." we talk about teapot dome and other scandals in his presidency but when he came into office it was a landslide. set the stage for what brought these people into office. and what the mood of the country was. >> the mood of the country is bad. it is the year when any republican can win. the trick was to get to the omination. tr was supposed to be the nominee. there was a big split. that is patched up. unfortunately, t.r. dies in his sleep in january, 1919.

there are people who want to fill the void. leonard wood. frank loughton. the governor of illinois, i can't remember how to pronounce his name correctly, i'm always being corrected on it. johnson was just too irascible. which leads you to the fourth man, the available man, as andrew sinclair, one of his biographers said, warren harding. he's not too hot, not too cold, not too much of anything. except he is handsome and a fairly good speaker. he has been on the national stage at the 1916 republican convention. he nominated taft in 1912. so he is the alternative. in that year, the alternative to wilsonism wins. >> the hardings' personal trajectory came from small-town marion, ohio, where they were publishers of the newspaper. give us a short history of

publishing a newspaper to national politics. >> yes, thank you so much. the "marion star" was a small paper when harding required it. he made it into a much more successful paper other time, thanks to the efforts of his wife, flarns. florence harding and he, we'll talk later about how they met but for the point of the discussion, how they got to 1920, she was a key element here. what happens is, they are working in the newspaper and it's going very well but it's a little dull for her. she'd like to see him get involved in other things. he does go on the circuit, he was a very good speaker. she thought he could go for bigger things. so he did. he ran for state senate, elected two times in ohio. tried to go further than that with a lieutenant governor. later ran for governor, was not successful but just as you said, he was positioned, he was visible in ohio and by the time

of 19 -- by the time of 1913, when there's a new law in this country which allows senators for the first time to be elected popularly, he's in position to run. and he's elected to the senate for ohio and he thus becomes publicly elected senate and the first one to become president as a sitting senator. his wife is right there with him along this trajectory. >> you write in your look "1920" that he was unconvinced about his viability as a candidate. even among his fellow republicans, his -- there was not much support. there was the matter of his ell, and he did die young. and there was nan and nan's

baby. warren harding's personal life was a mess. do people look the other way? >> i think there were a lot of things which were not talked about. scaen dals of public figures was not written about unless there was a divorce case. unless something went into the courts. the papers would not touch it. and something that's never occurred to me until now, he's a newspaper man. maybe he's part of that club and they're not going to write about it. that may work very much in his favor. but you also see in that era that there are other infidelities going on. there's mr. weeks, who he appoints to the cabinet, he has a mistress. there's certainly some issues about woodrow wilson, maybe in the bahamas or bermuda, rather, before he's president. there's the famous incident of

alice roosevelt longworth and er child deborah, which is amed, or she wanted to name it deborah, it becomes pauline, but that's the daughter of senator eborah, a famous guy. and franklin roosevelt cheating on eleanor roosevelt in 1917. the rich have their prerogatives and they take them. >> one of our viewers on facebook i ask unanimous consent to revise and extend my remarks -- asked, how did mrs. harding respond to rumors of harding's wandering eyes? >> that's an interesting question. we'll have some debate about the extra marital relationships harding had. he had an affair with carrie phillips. old friends. they were both -- the phillips and hardings were all related in a connected way in ohio.

and what happens over time is warring falls in love with carrie and florence finds out about this. sometime between 1905, when florence gets sick for the first time, and 1911, she discover this is affair. they were still friends, they were still vacationing together. your caller asks how was this happening? and how did florence react to this? well, not very happily. in fact, she asked him to consider divorce. but warren refused. he knew he needed her, partly for the reasons i alluded to, for his career and other ways. he agreed to downplay this affair and i believe he committed to sort of ending it but in fact he did not, as it turns out. so by 1920, as he's running for president, it's a bit of an embarrassment. it hasn't been an active affair for some queer but there were flaring moments of it and because of that in the end, she is essentially bought off by members of the republican party

and others who come up with funds to kind of get her out of the way and no, florence was not happy about this at all. there's some wonderful quotes we've read in her diary, to get back to the question, where she expresses the difficulty of dealing with an unfaithful husband like hers was. >> we have one of her diary quotes, but how much of a dirist was she? is it preserved? >> her diary is not reliable as far as dates. i believe it is an authentic version of her thoughts. it's a small book discovered about 15 years ago in a barn in ohio. it's a list of recipes, remembrances by her and these statements you're going to share with our audience and so from what i can tell, there's a clear sense of her own views and beliefs in there. ed -- i think it's credible but it's not extensive and it's not dated. >> a formal diary, it's in a

datebook or calendar. catch as catch can. there are huge gaps in it. but it seems to be real. >> one quote that we will share with you to capture her thinking about this is this one. to sanction the inequity of -- iniquity of man but demand purity of woman has become an attitude of society. >> did she make the best of warren harding? >> i think she did. she saw the potential in him. she saw he could be someone who could rise to higher position with her strength and her backing. sometimes we hear she made him or she made him president, i think that's too simple. i mean that takes away from his own abilities, which i think something they were that could be reckoned with. he wasn't just a pretty face

and a senatorall looking man. but she had a key role in pushing him into the place where he got to be. >> steve murdoch on twitter asked, wouldn't his newspaper enemies take shots at him and his infidelities. one ho did was his father-in-law. explain why he would in his newspaper criticize his son-in-law. >> in fact, this is a long story. >> he doesn't have a newspaper. he's a banker, a businessman. >> but doesn't he buy a competing newspaper? >> not that i know of. >> i don't believe that's true. >> i think that maybe what the caller is getting to is he actually helped fund an opponent of harding when harding ran for senator. >> he funded another newspaper. he funded another republican newspaper in the town to siphon business away from it. but to call him a newspaper person would be, no, he's a

banker. >> he's the banker behind it. >> and he's the fournl. and he likes being banker a lot more. >> there was a long history. he didn't like -- i know we're going to talk about the history of florence's first marriage. he did not like her first husband, he did not like her second husband. they only got reconciled later when amos, his first wife had died, the mother of florence, then he decided to make some rapprochement with her. but it was a difficult relationship for the first 37 years. >> of their life but the first seven years of the harding marriage there was nothing. >> it was a difficult time. >> you talked about harding's oratory and how he was known for it, helped make him a national personality. we're going to begin our audio and visual part of this program with an audio clip of warren harding in one of his speeches and then you'll learn about the front porch campaign, the way that they decided, unlike their

opponent, james cox, who was traveling around the country, to conduct their campaign from marion, ohio. let's watch. >> >> all of the action took place on this very porch here. usually during speeches, warren would stand in the middle here on the steps, the top step. florence right beside him. and they would wave to the crowds who were parading down mount vernon avenue toward his house. but this was a perfect backdrop

for the campaign. not only did it show the human sides of the hardings, the fact that they did not live in a mansion, they lived in a very normal house, like most of the folks coming to see him speak. they wanted to feature this town as well. warren himself often said that this campaign was taking main street to the white house. and florence was very much a part of this message. she was a very visible part of this campaign. she was always near him on the front porch when he was speaking. she gave interviews herself to magazines, especially women's magazines. she alternated between being the savvy politician to being the home body, the wife, the caretaker of the candidate. so she knew how poll techs worked. she knew the different sides of her that would have to be

portrayed as part of this campaign in order to make his campaign successful for him. she is not afraid to wade into a crowd. she's not hanging back. and she is in the line shaking hands along with the president to be. and going through hundreds, if not thousands, of people standing there as long as it will take to shake the hands and great people. so we see a florence harding who knows how her husband is going to get to the white house, through the votes. it's very important politically but she absolutely believes in the people of the united states. >> she seems as good or better a politician than her husband. >> absolutely. she is more out there, i say with her strength. he gets exhausted in some of these encounters. he pushes on but she continues. when we think about how ill she

was. she was back and forth with her illness, nephritis. it would take her 48 hours sometimes to recover with her hands sore and swollen. but she was determined to do it, she wanted to be accessible, she wanted to be a people person, i guess you could say. >> we welcome your participation, we're getting comments as you can see on facebook and twitter. you're become to join the conversation, the c-span facebook page is easy to follow, there's a conversation under way. twitter, two ways to be involved, use the hash it is g, #firstladies or our@firstladies address. here are the phone lines. >> you can't talk about the 1920 campaign without talking

about harry doherty -- dougherty. who was he? >> he's the campaign manager. he's the man behind the throne especially the way he tells it. he elevates his influence and power a great deal in the telling of the story and since the other two people are dead, he gets to tell it far longer. and he does help harding out. but you also see correspondence from harding where he's telling harry in 1918, you think just because i listen to the gulf that people tell me that i swallow it all? well, i don't. ok. i know exactly what's going on. and harding is in fact an incredibly savvy politician. he's good. he's an excellent people person. people like him. even his enemies like him.

he is -- he exudes human kindness. this is something which is quite often overlooked about him. he is a genuinely kind and if you shut out certain aspects of his life a good person. >> he's very lovable. daugherty is a kind of run of the mill ohio politician, he's been in the general assembly. and he has run for governor, attorney general, all sorts of things. but he's a little too shady to make the trip himself. he gets behind harding, he runs across him a few times. most particularly in florida when he says, i found him, he was sunning himself like a turtle on a log. and i pushed him off into it. now there are a lot of factors.

d florence make him, did daugherty make him, did harding make himself? and one biography makes the point that harding's , testations of humbleness are not necessarily an act. but harding from the beginning is a sharp guy. his academic career is good. he learns things very quickly. he's giving speeches at the age of 4. and so he's good early and he knows that people sometimes get jealous of people who are good. >> but wouldn't you agree he didn't necessarily want to be president, did he? >> i don't think so. certainly not with the carrie phillips thing hanging over his head. he enjoyed being in the senate. but he really didn't. but it seemed like over time,

increasingly, there was urgings on him and the situation back in ohio didn't look good for him to be re-elected. >> my theory is that -- and in the big long letter which he sends to carrie phillips regarding the blackmail -- >> how did she try to blackmail him? >> she had the will thers. that was not the only let she hung on to. there were approximately 98 of them. >> torrid love letters? >> not all torrid love letters ut a lot of them were. i will say this, often in reading history, people skip over to the dirty parts. skip the dirty part in reading these and read the rest of these. he's a very good writer. he's very good. and there's a certain charm and skill to his language skills.

but, she's got the goods on him. this is the smoking gun. these are -- this is the blue dress to the nth degree. and she's got it. and she and her husband in 1920, because she finally became so incensed at him, harding, that she tells her husband and they determine that they are going to put the hammer to this wannabe president and they'll drive him out of office or drive him bankrupt. >> the party responded by helping to deal with the carrie phillips situation. what did they do? >> they offered money to her and that seemed to take care of -- what was it like $5,000? >> $5,000 a year. enge they give $25,000 up front. and an all expenses paid trip to the orient. go far away during this election campaign. her and her husband. and the excuse is he's in the dry goods business, they have a

lot of dry goods over there. >> harding tried to argue with her, to suggest, i could do some good for the world if you let me carry out this presidential election. but no -- there was this disagreement there. so yeah, she's pretty much out of the picture at that point. and i argue that is sort of the end of this relationship and it's certainly, i think most would agree, i would argue it's the end of all the relationships. many would suggest there were other relationships. nan britten, others have been heard you've probably heard about the president's daughter. i don't find that credible, perhaps if your viewers are interested in hearing more about this. >> there was a child on the other side. florence was married before, had a child, divorced the child's father. was that an issue? >> this is a sad story. she married early on to escape her overwhelmingly powerful father.

we alluded to that earlier in the show. we don't actually have any record that she literally married this man next door, pete dewolf, but she eloped with him, they had a child. he had a difficult past and difficult future he left her and she -- he was a for the do well, he was a drunk, she was trying to raise this little boy, marshall, and her father steps in and says, you can't obviously do this, i'll take over and she was trying, this is the interesting part of her story. she taught pee yawn know. she was making -- piano, she was making money doing that, but not enough to sustain herself and her son. in the end she has to kind of allow marshall to live with her father. nevertheless, she lives -- she sees him quite a bit. when she married her second husband -- >> or maybe her first husband. >> she's been divorced from pete, this is apparently the first case, or maybe the second

case of divorce in ohio, certainly she's the first divorced first lady. and that story, marshall grows up, he has children, a wife, etc., and also has a sad future later himself and doesn't live very, very long after his young children are born. they are -- it's an interesting story, it's something that could have, i think, humanized the hardings even more, the little grandchildren running around the white house but she doesn't want to acknowledge that, she plays it down. back to our conversation, this was an issue she didn't want brought up in the election and she tries to down play it. i have not found much evidence that the children were ever invited much to the white house or that that story was, though it was important to her and she was in close contact with her dournl there wasn't much of a public, visible presence. >> holly hunt asks, what was the story on why florence harding didn't raise her son? >> it had much to do with this issue of her being a single mother and not a very wealthy

woman, despite -- >> not the scandal -- it was more she didn't have the money? >> well, yes. i think she probably could have done this, she was trying to, but yes. there were other issues, that's an important point but the interesting thing was, when she married warren, warren accepted marshall as well and marshall seems to have lived partly with them and partly with his grandfather. it was an interesting relationship. >> she doesn't seem that maternal. i think that's part of it. your e story -- i think original question had to do with the 1920 campaign or something, does that become an issue? and her being divorced, certainly divorce was not in favor at that time, but it's a case of mutual assured destruction. mr. cox, james middleton cox, is the first divorced person to run for president.

he has been married once before. and then he -- his wife, i think, had mental problems or something. and then he marries again. there's no great scandal in it. >> a much younger woman. >> yeah, but -- they're not about to bring that up. but if they had brought up the immense hardship which florence had to go through, and she spent a great deal of time really not dealing with until she gets in the white house and she's sick, the country does know about that. they don't cover it up like woodrow wilson or anything like that. but there could have been more sympathy generated for her because her life is so tremendously hard. take away the infidelity. but she comes from the richest family in town, she has to go and live, elope, with this fellow when she's pregnant at the time of the marriage, or

nonmarriage, as it was. and when she gets back to town, when she is abandoned, it is on christmas eve and she has to hitch a ride, beg a ride, on a train on christmas eve, to get home and even then she's afraid to go see her father. and must break into an abandoned home to spend the night and then sees her father and it's no, no i will not help you. finally a deal is brokered after quite a while, that i will take your son but not you. this is like way down east. this is like d.w. griffith and lillian gish on the ice floe with the christmas eve thing. this is real 19th century me lo drama and it happened to her. -- mellow drama and it happened to her.

the illness, this series of things. in that way she's a sympathetic person because she's a survivor. >> first up with phone calls is bill, watching in colorado. hi, bill, you're on. >> thank you for taking my call. i have always thought that florence harding was rather misaligned as a first lady, regardless of the scandals in the administration. i think she was probably very opinionated and yes, i think she was very bossy. but the horrible rumors that came and i'm sure you'll discuss them later, but gaston meens and everything that she poesonned the president and this sort of stuff. i think she was probably in the top 10 of first ladies because of her accomplishments and the amount of firsts she had. thanks again for taking my call and i really appreciate you,

susan, and your guests, for the good job they're doing with florence. >> thanks so much. we can't leave the 1920 campaign without a very important point, we have been making note of it along the way. this is the first election when the first lady to be can vote for her own husband as a candidate. how important was the woman's vote in 1920? >> it was very important. it's interesting, the number of women, the number of women voters, in 1916, there was still a large number of states allowed women to vote but by 1920 the number of actual voters numped from 18 million to 25 million because women were voting. that wasn't the only reason, probably more immigrants, etc., but this was a sig cabot shift. and it's also -- a significant shift. and it's important to the election because florence becomes someone who was very much attuned and she's always been very much attuned as a woman, a single mother, someone who dealt with her fair share of difficulties, she's she's

attuned to the plight of women and the opportunities women will get now that they are voters. she is very interested in women's the vote itself is a moment of real triumph for her. she is there at the front porch. she travels 25,000 miles with him after they leave the front porch. she is reaching out. there are number of problems. but she is very much excited about women's possibilities. there is a quote you can perhaps allude to, where she talks about how thrilled she is to see women succeeding in active in politics, wanting to cultivate that. >> they break the vote down by sex in 1920. i believe the harding-coolidge team does well.

you also see it is an advantage to the republicans. you see precincts in massachusetts where the immigrant areas do not do as well. it is the republican party which puts the amendment through. the south is not particularly into it. neither is the traditional immigrant culture. it is the native american or older stock, republican areas which are more interested in putting suffragette. it is something which boosts harding that year. he is a hell of a lot better looking than james cox. >> this is the first presidential election that had read your coverage of the

results. the reported the election results across the nation. i want to bring in two other points. first of all, florence harding liked astrology. it was to her very important way of getting information, gathering strategies. she had a relationship with an astrologer. who was she? >> madame marcia. she wasn't alone in this. it was an interesting period of time. lots of people believe this. if anything, people were more criticized who were following astrology than even now. nevertheless, she found it extremely important. it shows up in her diaries. it shows up in her writings. of course, madame marcia told her that harding was going to die, but he was going to die in office.

she nevertheless decides all the same that she's going to back him to the hilt and make sure this happens. it does seem to have an uncanny effect on her relationship as first lady. >> we see in 1909, the jeweler's wife goes to madame marcia and gets the same prediction, but she ends up being the second wife to woodrow wilson. >> that is amazing. i did not know that. >> i am really enjoying your show. i was wondering why mrs. harding was a well-liked but respected. >> that is an interesting question. you are suggesting that her

likability is understood to not be very high, but her respectability is high. if i understand you correctly. it is interesting. this gets into the discussion of where she falls as a first lady. it was mentioned she was not very maternal. i would disagree with that. i think of her relationship with the men who worked for her. on the same note, perhaps she was kind of a hard person to be around. she could be strong and perhaps more a yin than yang with her husband. i actually have found in reading her papers and looking at her to be much more likable. there was a kindness about her.

there was a caringness. she had many causes she believed in. we can talk more about that. she should be both respected and liked. >> was she an early day nancy reagan? there are number of aspects that connect with modern presidents. i want to bring in a happy part of the 1920 campaign. accusations about warren harding's heritage. >> that goes back to the friction between harding and his father-in-law. the rumors have been going around that part of the country for a while about the harding family. the theory now is that arose because the hardings were abolitionists. they worked on the underground railroad.

when you did that, people started rumors about you. the rumors would be that the hardings were part black. these rumors were floating around. one of the reasons he doesn't trust her judgment in men after the first marriage. also, he believes harding is part black. he is pretty vociferous about it. i will not print his language. he goes around town saying what he thinks harding is. finally he gets used to harding, but the stories do not go away. there is a fellow named chancellor who is a distinguished professor, went to all sorts of colleges, historian and author, but a thorough racist.

he is at the 1916 democratic convention. it becomes obvious that harding is going to be the nominee, he becomes obsessed with harding's ancestry, collecting stories. and basically my theory is -- they go around the country. the right quarter million copies of the handbill alleging he is black. how do they get there? it is not the lone crackpot. i believe it was the ohio democratic party. there is an interview with the cox family in 1920. they say warren's one of our relatives. he used to come visit.

mrs. cox's name was harding. you do not want to get this up and running because maybe your children have harding blood, which means they have other sorts of blood. >> florence harding's nickname was duchess. we are going to learn how she earned that nickname. we going to learn more about that in our next video. >> this key is special. it is hinged. it fits in your pocket. mr. harding carried it in his pocket for 40 years. it is a key to his newspaper building. while he was the official owner of the marion star, you cannot speak about it without bringing florence into the picture.

she managed the books and headed circulation department for 12 years. it was very much a joint enterprise and sense of pride. it was their baby. i would like take you into the press house to show you more things connected to the marion star. let me show you what is in here. mrs. harding kept the books. this is an accounting book. this is her handwriting. she is keeping track of money going in and out. warren worked the editorial side. she is assembling newsboys.

she starts delivering the newspaper for the first time. you do not have to come to the newspaper office to buy your newspaper. you can have it tossed on your front porch. also in this case we have the timecard stamp. we have a stamp from the marion star. a picture of the building at that time, it doesn't stand anymore. florence harding had a very businesslike mind. she is a little out of step with other women in her time because of that. her father was an excellent and taught her about keeping books, keeping mortgages. things that most women will not have an interest in nor would want to take the time to teach them. this sets her up nicely to help at the marion star. he needs help keeping the place

afloat. he finds it difficult to hound people to pay their bills. she doesn't. she doesn't shy away from that at all. that really frees him up to do what he does best, the editorial product. it is a win-win situation for the newspaper, and works well for the two of them. >> want to take a call from david. and then we will talk more about the experience at the marion star. hi, david. >> this is a great program. i just finished the book, a couple of months ago, called "the teapot dome scandal." very good book light mccartney. it begins with an individual from oklahoma, who i think donated a tremendous amount of money to harding's campaign initially, saw him being the man for the election.

this individual was a profligate. he enlisted a nephew to marry a woman who became his mistress, and bandied around the country with her. however, when it became evident he wanted to be the secretary of the interior. they were all set to do that, to make him secretary of the interior, until the duchess put her foot down. apparently this individual's wife was a relative of florence, and she made no uncertain terms to president harding, a firm statement that if he were to come to washington, this woman would not accompany him. and apparently one night, he had

the individual in question. his name escapes me. he delivered the bad news to his mistress, and she shot him and they tried to cover it up. he eventually died. i think that portended what happened along the way with the administration, and the lust and quest for oil. >> thank you. >> i have seen a couple of versions of that story. one that it was a man who gave the money, and that it was haman's wife who gave the money. to get him back to washington without the mistress. ok? wheels within wheels. the teapot dome scandal is very interesting. what we have is a fellow, albert fall, and there was no great

reason to be particularly suspicious of fall in the interior department. there were no issues raised. he needed the money. he had a big ranch. it made the money through his wife's inheritance. he cuts these deals with harry sinclair, huge amounts of money. there are some cattle which are shipped in from new jersey, which the neighbors become concerned about. at first the case goes nowhere. it unravels. he is convicted and becomes the first cabinet member to go to jail. that is in 1931. this case is a slowly unraveling

case. sometimes the drip can hurt the reputation more than if it is just over and done with. these things drip with harding after his death. whether it is the britain book or the indictment of fall or people in the veterans administration or the alien property offers or is attorney general. >> it isn't clear that harding knew. >> no. i do not think he did it all. >> the caller suggests the hardings were aware of it. i do not think there is evidence. >> i would say absolutely not. to make a larger point, i do not think there is any credible evidence that harding is involved in any of these scandals. >> not at all. >> will have more time to get to these scandals later in the

program. we are in her preparation years. i want ask about how important it was -- she seemed to favor women reporters. she hired the first woman reporter at the newspaper. how important were the skills that she and warren harding brought to the press in their success to the campaign? >> very important. they were people used to working in the newspaper business. florence wasn't involved in the writing. she was involved in the business. that skill was very useful. >> she liked reporters. >> she did. she was loved by them as well. when she was in the white house, especially the women reporters. she would have them in to see what she was doing. what the gardens looked like. this was very popular. the reporters gravitated to her.

it is another point connected. they were very popular in the white house because they could deal so well with the press. during the campaign, the press was used extensively. they were media savvy. and of course, some of our viewers may know that they were close to mr. lasker, the pork and beans person. he sold pork and beans for that company. and so they were able to use that approach to sell their campaign. pictures, recordings. all that played well with the press. >> before we leave, how they brought hollywood into the campaign. >> dw griffith, the gishes. the gish sisters came to the front porch. it is interesting today to think about it republican candidate

with all the support from hollywood. this is not will we would have suspected at the time. they love the movies. they showed movies in the white house. extensively. this was something they would gravitate to. the celebrity culture. florence grooved on that. >> on facebook, i'm struck about the comments about women and men in the era. how big is the women's movement at the time? we talked about that. then she asked, what issues were there beyond the vote for women? >> in the election? it is always the economy. the economy is bad in 1920. there is tremendous unemployment.

there is inflation. there are strikes ravaging the country. the country is a mess economically. there is all this dislocation of veterans coming back causing problems. but also the league of nations is the big issue. >> for women? >> for everyone. because you do not want another war, for america to be dragged into things. and the person of the hardings who was against the league of nations, it was a florence. florence is the hard-liner there. who else is a good hardliner at this time against the league of nations, but her friend alice roosevelt longworth. they are very hard line against the league. >> harding signed into law the shepherd counteract, which brought health clinics

throughout the clinic. that was a short-lived initiative that was ended by the end of the 1920's. it would be carried on during the new deal. >> and probation, brought into the constitution because of the woman's temperance movement. so what was the feeling about prohibition? was it popular? >> it had just passed. it was going into effect. he had voted for it without any enthusiasm. he would take a drink or so. he would take one shot of ales, and that will be it for the night. he was not a heavy drinker, despite reports. i do not think those are true. it is the women, the temperance movement of the women, which largely puts prohibition in more than the men. they see the men getting paychecks on a friday night, blowing it in saloons, going to women of the night, bringing things home.

it was not good. the saloon was established as an evil place. now, we see that this gender gap exists even at the end of prohibition. when you see the numbers for franklin roosevelt started to tip down, his numbers from the private democratic pollsters go down. it is the women who favor prohibition. >> what is your question? >> thank you for taking my phone call. i read what her favorite causes was taking care of veterans after world war i. i was wondering about her

efforts with veterans, and if there is an enduring legacy from her efforts? >> that is a great question. we're going to talk about the other causes. that was very much a passion for her. before the war she had been involved with various things to help soldiers. because of her kidney ailment, this made her sensitive to the suffering of veterans after the war. there were many people going around in wheelchairs, limbs missing. she would invite them to the white house. if you saw veteran walking along the street, she would stop her car and make sure they had a ride. she is passionate about veterans. she would go to hospitals. later we might see a clip of a special item who came from a

veteran. this was close to her heart. she was particularly disheartened when it was discovered there was a scandal in the veterans bureau. he created a veterans bureau, and the man he chose was an old friend from the senate, who turned out to be a crook. he still many of the goods that were supposed to go to the veteran supply. he made money from kickbacks. >> lots of money. >> forbes was a wilson appointee running pearl harbor in hawaii. he flattered her shamelessly. and so she in fact was the person who said you should a point this forbes fellow. her other great friend took a great dislike to him. it was sawyer who brought rumors of the thefts, which are completely egregious. you talk about your teapot dome. you talk about whatever jeff smith did in the justice

department. i think the great shame of the administration is what they did to veterans. even in terms of money. >> right. she absolutely was even more forceful than harding. he was reluctant to turn hard on his old friends. he did have to accept the resignation of forbes. >> sent him out of the country. >> while you were talking but the veterans, we saw some clips of veterans in wheelchairs. some credit florence for creating photo ops. what she responsible for them? >> she was the first first lady to use photography at these opportunities. many of your viewers may know there was a picture with her with filipino women looking for independence for their country. it was a wonderful photo op. she liked to do this. she had this photogenic dog. he was featured. it was put forward by these photo ops.

again, it ties into our discussion of hollywood and celebrity culture that was part of her. she wore a neck clasp. it became popular. many people wanted to copy it. there was a harding blue collar she wore. it was a color that she wore and people called it harding blue. i think the photo op was her thing. >> now we think about presidents and first ladies with dogs. the last several presidents have done videos. it was the hardings that made a celebrity out of him. even though the roosevelts had many animals in the white house. >> they had quite the zoo. i am thinking about a picture with florence. even before that, she is the first first lady to go to a

convention and campaign for her husband, and to be accessible to the press. she is not just there as an ornament. she is very effective. she is doing all the things a man would do. i do not think we talked about how her father had wanted a boy. we skipped over that. >> that is a good point. >> he said, i will just raise her as a boy, do all the business things men do. she learned how to run the hardware store. make loans at the bank. do everything a male business person could do. that is what gave her the strength to run the marion star. how small was the marion star when they got a hold of it?

so small it was called the marion pebble. but she doesn't have to learn how to do it. she already knows. he can hit the ground running. when warren harding checks into the sanitarium. harding has physical problems. they both have physical problems. they should never go to the white house. she has nephritis. she is laid up dying. it is horrible. the pain she is in. they say in one of these things, it is so intense she is digging her hands in and making a fist, and he goes in so deep and the nails cause her to bleed. the intensity of the pain. >> this is interesting. she was a believer in this french psychologist.

mind over matter. she read his book. she was determined to get better. >> she was a great writer. that was one of her great requests. >> harding is a horseman. they both love animals. they hate any cruelty to them. thee learned about president's great illness. the closing down of the white house during the last year. they put sheep on the light -- white house lawn to suggest austerity during the war. cap people off of the lawn. the first thing that the hardings did when they came to the white house was get rid of the sheep. >> it was so positive.

they knew this was going to happen. people were excited. office,rence comes into this is going to open things up. times talkedyork about it. it was a sense that they would be sharing the burden. this opening of the white house was a refreshing moment. people could come onto the lawn. they are out there shaking hands. >> there is a story about those sheep. she is walking by the white house when worn is a senator. grazing and sheep the police are guarding the sheep, shooing the people away from the white house. she gets nervous and trips, falling into the mud. she is tremendously embarrassed

for a variety of reasons. the policeman will have better things than guarding sheep. >> one of the things she brought back was the white house easter roll. thousands of people came to the white house to take part. >> one of the biggest things, this went on and on. all kinds of people came. at one point, already a hectic time in 7000 people were in the 1923, white house. this is how open, how accessible. we mentioned earlier their illnesses. this was probably not that healthy for them. not just the germs, but the exhaustion of greeting people. they had concerts on the lawn, they had visitors coming constantly.

harding fell, -- felt, he was a kindly and dear man, as we mentioned, felt there was no reason why he should not be accessible to people. >> the film we saw earlier, the overhead shot, that sort of disturbs me. it is what the politicians have to go through at that level, this maelstrom. it is quite a sacrifice they make. >> it probably killed him in the end. >> the president on their view of florence harding's strengths and contributions -- that is a great quote. here is florence harding on her husband -- later she wrote, i know what is best for the president. i put him in the white house. you do not believe she said that. >> may be at any given moment she did, but the nickname she

had before she was the duchess was the boss. war and -- warren sort of toned that down for public consumption, but i think half the time he felt she was the boss. in many ways he valued her opinion. i think there was a real partnership. >> roger is watching us in baltimore. >> thank you. i have a few questions for ms. sibley. since listening to you, i think i would like to read your biography of florence. i have already read one biography that was very detailed, and i am wondering if you have an opinion on that one. do you think mr. carl anthony's biography of florence harding is accurate and well researched? i am hoping you can answer the other question with ace temple a simple yes or no, but it might be difficult. you have done a mountain of research on florence harding, i

am sure. now that all is said and done, do you have a gut feeling, yes or no, simply from your heart, do you think that nan britain's child belongs to warren harding? why have the grandchildren refused dna tests? >> that is a very good question. i will answer your second question first, because it sounds a that is a yes or no. i will say, absolutely i do not believe harding is the father of nan britain's child. there is really no credible evidence. i like the piece -- we have very good evidence that one affair happened for much of those

years. but the case of nan britton, a young woman, she had a crush on warren, they certainly connected that there was nothing of the sort we heard about on "boardwalk empire" another popular culture and books you were alluding to. to me, there is no credible evidence. the dna business sort of confirms it. my sense is orangey harding probably had, other people suggested this as well, some kind of fertility problem. florence had no problem having children, yet they were married for 15 years and were only 30, 31 when they got married. harding loved children. there would have been really no reason for them to have additional children before she got ill. issues may have created a situation where she could not. to me, it seems not credible that nan britton had an affair or that a child resulted. i do not really believe in

either. perhaps you would like to weigh in. >> if you could quickly answer >> the book was a wonderful book, and i read it very closely when i was creating my own work on florence. my concern about his approach is much of it seems to be focused on the affairs. as you can tell from what i just said, i do not find them very credible except for terry phillips. we would disagree on those particular issues, but he certainly unearths a lot of really interesting information about florence. i give him a lot of credit for trying to begin the wave of scholarship i like to think of myself as part of. reconsidering florence in a more positive way. >> you seen suggest -- to suggest in your book you believe there were more affairs. >> i revisited the issue. i figured, i think they're going to mention it.

so i started to look one way and another. with kerry phillips you know -- carrie phillips you know there is something. historians rarely have that level of proof. which gets to the question of letters, why doesn't nann britton have those letters? did she destroy them? that leads to another question, not about her, but this occurred to me two days ago. if they pay off carrie phillips, where we know an affair happened, if they pay her off, why doesn't she turned those letters back? this is a botched payoff attempt. if i am giving you $5,000 a year

or sending you to japan, i want the letters. at one point she in -- offered to give them. but getting back to nan britton, we see that admin starling, who has no particular grudge against hardy, says he is the kindest man he ever met. he was a secret service man and said harding is not a drinker. he says he was asked to carry letters to new york secretly from harding. some other agents did carry those letters and some other agent brought someone back from new york. we have that level of proof. we also have certain things which corroborated from the letters of phillips, to harding from mrs. phillips.

i have heard one historians say somehow she got asked after the letters, that is too far of a stretch. the question he raises a question i have now had for 10 years as writing "1920." i would love to see those dna tests. if we can do it on jefferson, there are many collateral descendents of war and harding. a really big family. they are all doctors now. there was nan britton, elizabeth and, and she had two sons. i believe dna testing is possible. i do not know if it is true they have refused this or anyone has asked them. i kind of doubt that. i will ask snipe -- tonight -- would you do it? >> we have only 20 minutes.

we have been talking about the scandals. we alluded to the fact there have been a number of firsts in the florence harding first ladyship. i would like to list some of those so you can see why she is, if not a transformational, definitely a transitional first lady. the first to vote in a presidential election. the first divorced first lady. the first two was public about her illness, in contrast with the administration before. the first first lady lady to get secret service protection. the first first lady to fly in an airplane. she created the photo op. the first to give impromptu public speeches. the very first to own a radio. quite a list of firsts. >> she was a transitional figure because the times were changing so rapidly then. part of it is a function of the times. she was also a forward-looking

person. >> we are going to run out of time. this is back from the harding home in marion, indiana. items from the white house years. >> we are in the dining room at the harding home. in the sideboard here are pieces of a set of crystal that were used in the harding white house. the harding's -- hardings did not have white house china. that was a conscious decision on their part. they went into the white house following world war i and in a deep recession. mr. harding was stressing the need for a economy and government. they decided that was one expenditure that did not need to be made. there is plenty -- they just used what was there. this collection has never been displayed in its entirety before. mrs. harding collected figurines of elephants. she thought they were good luck.

especially if the trunks were going up. conveniently, they also are the symbol of the republican party, so it serves two purposes. made of all different kinds of materials. jade, ivory. these were often displayed in a curio cabinet in the private quarters of the harding white house. we have a very unique piece here. a portable movie projector used in the private quarters of the white house. the hardings were both movie fans. they like comedies. charlie chaplin, buster keaton. this was used in the upstairs hallway, the private quarters. they would turn that into an impromptu movie theater for their friends. on their dresser here, a couple very special things. a jewelry box that is french and dates from the 1700's. it was a 16th birthday gift to her from her father. she takes the jewelry box with

her and is displayed in the private quarters of the white house. in here we are going to see some very unusual things, some things that are certainly -- they speak to florence harding. one of those things is a necklace. there is a faded four leaf clover in there. that four leaf clover was found on the lawn of the white house by a disabled that -- vet and was given to her. she is a kind of superstitious woman, so she immediately think this is a good omen. she has it put a necklace so she can wear it. there is a penny in here. a 1920 penny she carried during the campaign for good luck. and a mourning ring. she wore this after the president's death. she did not wear a wedding ring. to her, wedding rings were a sign of subservience.

this is kind of odd, because we know she is fiercely dedicated to her husband. yet she did not wear a wedding ring. she would wear a mourning ring. >> the harding white house, even though there was illness by the first lady, was a social white house. how did they use entertaining? >> many people came. there were dinners, all kinds of groups, girl scouts, veterans groups, women's groups. all these, lots of social activities going on. one of the people who was a very popular visitor was evelyn walsh mclean, who was a very wealthy heiress. had the hope diamond. one of the fascinating moments was that the white house was this social place. but she got very ill in september of 1922. from then until march the visits really stopped.

it was tough. very few people coming, a silent place, a difficult place. one of the reasons she recovered was because they all were so social. the whole country prayed for her. it was interesting. a hundred people came and did a mass praying for her to get better. finally, at deaths door, dr. mayo is going to come. the movie cameras are there to watch him come in. it seems to have really turned the corner. her dear friend, this much younger woman. she was 29 to florence's 55. both of them did not have -- they had a real bond, a real- time. -- tie. >> came from a mining camp at west. her father, very poor, literally strikes gold and becomes

fabulously wealthy. then she marries into more wealth, the son of the publisher of a cincinnati paper. they knew the hardings from ohio. was a morphine addict. that was because of an injury, an auto accident that killed her brother. she was a very heavy drinker, even before that. this hope diamond, she purchased the hope diamond in paris, supposedly worn by marie antoinette. they warned her, do not do it. then people started to die around here. -- around her. i came in to washington decades ago and went in to see the smithsonian. there in front of me was the hope diamond. i thought, the night before there had been on abc television, the curse of the

hope diamond. i said, the curse of the hope diamond? and i came out and my car was missing. [laughter] >> the harding presidency, we begin to hear about the scandals that were building, including the so-called teapot dome scandal. the attorney general daugherty. the veterans bureau scandal, which was many hundreds of thousands of dollars. on the positive side, the first radio broadcast from that administration. he was also the president who appointed former president taft as chief justice of the united states. i am wondering, alternately, about mr. harding's reputation. one viewer on facebook asks whether or not he was the most corrupt president in history. there are others who suggest he does not get his due for some of

the things that happened during his administration. where would you put him? >> i do not think he is corrupt at all. a definite canard. that is just not true. there are the bad appointments you alluded to. there are scandals under truman with mink coats and deep freezes. there is sherman adams under dwight eisenhower. there are scandals under lyndon johnson, scandals of a much more recent vintage. they are not necessarily connected to the man in charge. they do not prove their corruption and it is unfair to tar them like that in some cases. certainly, harding, i would criticize him for being maybe -- not being maybe as vigilant with forbes. he should not have allowed him. he goes to jail after harding is dead.

>> why, in the summer of 1923, did the president and first lady plan a trip? >> there have been suggestions this was to escape -- >> they just wanted to see alaska. >> they gave it a brand -- brand name, the voyage of understanding. they were going to go to alaska, and then come down through the panama canal. right after the election, a vacation visit. this trip was aimed to create a greater connection between the american people and alaska. unfortunately it was the trip that would be the end of harding's life. what happened on the trip, he gives many speeches, is welcomed around the country, but it turns out in san francisco, where they plan to stay in a nice way and

visit and talk and give more speeches, it turned out to be the place where he died at the palace hotel. the trip was a very great success up until that point. they did connect with people in alaska and around the country. but because of the way the harding administration was done, all the handshaking and speeches, it really wore him out. his health was already not so strong. what is really interesting is florence's health was so dire. on the trip there was a cop and packed secretly. -- coffin packed secretly. the fear was she would not survive the trip. she did survive the trip. they and up at the hotel, which becomes a kind of hospital. harding becomes sick. he thought it was some crab he ate in alaska. everyone else ate it and recovered, and he did not.

in fact, he gets stickers, recovers -- sicker, recovers only to get sicker again. he died of what some have called apoplexy, others alluded to poisoning. it seems he simply had a heart attack. a very sad moment for florence. a difficult history. >> the trip back is remarkable. he has to go all the way across the country and out again to marion, ohio. >> his body. >> his body. the scenes people write about of crowds gathering silently in the middle of the night, in remote areas. breaking into songs and hymns. god knows how many people saw him pass through. a remarkable thing. the feelings were quite genuine. >> that must be chicago, i am guessing.

>> look at the crowds. >> it was about one million. >> there has been criticism of florence harding for being so uncaring publicly about this. your take on her response to her husband's death? >> it was connected with the character we talked about earlier, the mind over matter, the mastery of the motion. she kept saying, i will not break down. she kept her emotions in check. all around, people in tears and falling apart. part of this was she knew she had to organize first a little ceremony in san francisco, then this huge ceremony, including a visit to the rotunda. thousands of people seeing the body in washington, then another ceremony in ohio. a 96-our trip across the country. >> very delayed. >> exactly. they were down to 10 miles an hour. some people thought she had died on the way. her emotions were in check because she needed to have control.

not because she did not miss him dearly. not because she encouraged his death in any way. she trusted these doctors. she called when he died, she yelled for the moon -- boone. he was finally getting a breath of fresh air downstairs. he had been there for days in the hotel. she called for him, and it was too late. >> robert, in chicago. >> i have several questions. are there any descendents of the hardings today? number two, are there any pictures of marshall? i have been trying to look upon my internet. the other question, what was mrs. harding's life after the president's death? >> thanks. were there any pictures of her son, marshall? >> there is one in my book.

it came from the ohio -- the marion historical society. >> are there any descendents left? >> you could debate that. >> we have talked about her health and will go back to the harding house for our last video. this is about florence's recurring health problems. it answers the viewer's question about what happened to her after the white house. >> this room is filled with a lot of clothing, shoes, hats, all kinds of everyday things. the bed they got in 1910, birdseye maple. in the guest room they have the double bed they originally had in here. by 1910, florence is a semi- invalid with kidney disease. when that flares up, she is bed ridden three or four months at a time. during that time she has excruciating abdominal pain, swelling in her feet, her hands, her ankles. this is a sick room for them.

my unbelief is the twin beds work well because of her situation -- my own belief is the twin beds work well because of her situation. twin beds were popular around 1910. it was not unusual for married couples to do that just to get a good nights sleep. for them, i think it had a lot to do with their illness. a very personal item of mrs. harding's. she used this a lot during the fall of 1922. they are in the white house. her kidney disease picked up in september.

she is in bed until november. and nearly dies. >> my question is this. i want to know about the history agra for you -- historiography of the hardings. i am a staff member of the harding house, so i get a lot of questions about the poisoning, the papers. my question, why is there still the myth out there even though the evidence is right out there and there is not a movement to turn things around? >> let's say with the rumors are. the rumors started how soon after harding's death that she was responsible for poisoning him? >> there were a number of rumors. i date it to the 1930's.

i do not know if she raised the issue of the poisoning. >> a former secret service agent. an absolute crook and a fellow that was swindling evalyn walsh mclean out of money in relation to the lindbergh kidnapping. he is the guy who put the story out. not a credible guy. >> this goes on to this day. i recently met some people who are hearing the stories still from tour guides in alaska. thankfully, the historians stopped the issue. i think it began to switch in the late 1960's. you had a very important book. but also propagating a lot of stories we have been wrestling with the night.

>> she did not allow an autopsy. and had guards around the president's body. was she not somewhat the architect? >> the autopsy i understand. she left him so dearly. i cannot imagine she would want to see him carved up. visitors around the country wanted to see his body. they slowed down some people could see. but you are absolutely right that the history could not be told because she would not allow people to write it. >> burning the papers, under the circumstances of his death, the scandals -- >> how many were burnt? >> there were a lot of questions about that. she burns a lot of stuff at the mclean mansion. it appears she basically burns copies of the book the chancellor had written. also an unopened chute case --

suitcase of harding's. >> there are 907 manuscript boxes at the library of congress of his papers. there is a lot. >> we were talking earlier about letters between the two of them. we do not see those letters because they wanted some privacy. t.r.'s widow burnt a lot of his papers. any conspiracy there, or the desire for privacy? >> where was harding buried? >> marion, ohio. >> mrs. harding came back to washington, moved out of the white house? >> she lived in the weathered hotel, the same place the coolidges lived when they were in the vice presidential time. i think she -- if she stayed in washington she might have lived longer. she had just come back and was beginning something of an active life.

unfortunately, she got sick again and dr. sawyer encouraged her to come back to ohio. at that point, i am afraid she just sort of gave up. when you think about the strength she had in the white house -- >> warren was her light, and that was gone. her kidneys were gone, too. >> she died in marion, ohio at the age of 64. the only president and first lady to die before what would have been the end of their first term. another sad first for the country. here's a question from gary robinson, who wants to ask -- florence or warren as the more interesting? >> they are both very interesting. this is like this ranking of presidents we get into, which i hate to make lists. i will pass on that one, but i will say what we were talking

about earlier, about his legacy and his a congressman's, the creation -- a compliments -- accomplishments. the naval bureau, the bringing back of the economy. and the bringing back of the economy. these are all major accomplishments. been even worse traded by history but there is more to her now than we probably have ever known. >> we said at the beginning that you referred to her as a neglected and derided first lady. she is at the bottom of all these lists. where the sheep along? >> i would say she belongs in the top 10. she was a transitional first lady. she made the cracks in the mold that eleanor roosevelt broke. she had causes that many people embraced. she created the culture of celebrity. she was a caring, kind person who wanted to make the world better for the underprivileged. --soners, women, minorities

we didn't get to talk about all these issues tonight. i hope you will look into her further. >> you don't like lists, so where would you put her? >> in terms of setting precedents, in terms of opening the visibility, she would have to rank very high on that. not opening up the white house but reopening up to the public, that is very significant. we have seen it close down since then. after coolidge, it sort of closed down. the depression and the war and such and concerns of modern life have closed it down. it used to be the people's house. she really brought the people back into it. our partners have a compendium book about the lives of first ladies. we are making it available on our website for cost. if you would like to follow along, you can find it at www.c- /firstladies.

thanks to our two guests tonight. a first lady that was in for a well known when we started and hopefully you know more now. catherine book is available. has several books that you can look to, but one that is particularly about this era. thanks to both of you for being here. >> thank you. ♪

before becoming first lady, grace coolidge taught at his school for the death -- deaf in massachusetts. when her husband became president, she invited helling keller to the white house. join us to learn more about grace coolidge on ""first ladies ." a reminder, new "first ladies grandson the new year. starting with nancy reagan on monday, january 13 at 9:00 eastern.

that is followed by barbara bush, hillary clinton, laura bush and michelle obama. live here on c-span and c-span radio. the whiteartners at house historical association, we offer a special edition of a book, first ladies of the united states of america. it provides a biography and portrait of each first lady. available for $12.95 plus shipping at c-span.org/pro ducts. she was everyone's soul sister. everyone thought they knew where. they did, pretty much. she laid her life out for everybody to see. about what life was like in suburbia. for women in the 1960's through the 1990's. one of the wonderful things about her, she wrote mainly humor and it was humor that was

accessible to everyone. humor that happened in everybody's lives. they might not recognize it until they saw it written on the page or in a newspaper column. time things happen all the but we have to be on the lookout for them. she was the one that focused our attention on the funny things that happen in a family. think that at the moment see my craziness and drive you nuts but when you look back at them, you say, that was really funny. that is a real gift. that is a literary gift. >> the life and times of erma bo mbeck this weekend as book tv and american history tv look at the literary life of dayton, ohio. >>